Thread: Arrest at Walmart leads to charges of racism

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by Consultant

The challenge for government is to help the poor kid in the ghetto without taking away from the rich kid of priveledge. Why should the rich family not hook their son up? Continue the family status, provide for their son the very best they possibly can? As long as they didnt break any laws, IMHO, we have nothing to say about it. At all.

Now then...provide effective education for the children and parents of the poorer set and we are onto something.

The demonizing of the rich in this country is getting out of hand.

I posted the stats before but did you know there are something like 9 million Millionaires in the US and over a thousand billionaires?

There's nothing wrong with building and preserving wealth and the wealthy should not be penalized for their success because it "fee;s fair".

I know you didnt say any of that stuff and it may seem like I am putting words in your mouth but I promise that is not my intention.

No one is demonizing the rich here. The poor are the ones getting demonized. They are being called lazy, unfocused, and inferior, among other things. Since when did standing up for the poor become demonizing the rich? My question is why are some people here so quick to defend the handful of wealthy people over the scores of poor people? If you want to believe it is fine for the wealthy to hook their kids up, that's fine, but then don't pretend that everyone has equal opportunities. The poor, and particularly minorities, have far fewer opportunities to succeed than trust fund babies, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Really is that what was said? Or are you making things seem like you want them to be? Once again you keep making it sound like a poor black kid is in worse shape than a poor white kid. Poor is poor. If they both live in the getto broke as shit there might as well be brothers. You need to get past your color barrier and look at what the real problem is.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by Consultant

The challenge for government is to help the poor kid in the ghetto without taking away from the rich kid of priveledge. Why should the rich family not hook their son up? Continue the family status, provide for their son the very best they possibly can? As long as they didnt break any laws, IMHO, we have nothing to say about it. At all.

Now then...provide effective education for the children and parents of the poorer set and we are onto something.

The demonizing of the rich in this country is getting out of hand.

I posted the stats before but did you know there are something like 9 million Millionaires in the US and over a thousand billionaires?

There's nothing wrong with building and preserving wealth and the wealthy should not be penalized for their success because it "fee;s fair".

I know you didnt say any of that stuff and it may seem like I am putting words in your mouth but I promise that is not my intention.

No one is demonizing the rich here. The poor are the ones getting demonized. They are being called lazy, unfocused, and inferior, among other things. Since when did standing up for the poor become demonizing the rich? My question is why are some people here so quick to defend the handful of wealthy people over the scores of poor people? If you want to believe it is fine for the wealthy to hook their kids up, that's fine, but then don't pretend that everyone has equal opportunities. The poor, and particularly minorities, have far fewer opportunities to succeed than trust fund babies, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Apparently we will never agree that the opportunities are in fact equal, so we'll leave that one alone for now. Albeit I understand the climb up the mountain is far more steep for some than it is for others.

In my honest opinion, I feel that my views on the poor/lower class differ from that of others because of the area I live in and the demographics I live around. I live in South Louisiana, so naturally my views on social status being a product of laziness will differ from that than someone who lives in a different part of the country.

I can only make assumptions about this issue, using the first hand happenings that I have seen here in my state. I would say that a GREAT majority of the time, here in LA, people are at the bottom of the pole, because they choose to be there (see my free education from Pre-k through college a few pages back). Where I live, there literally is no reason for a majority of our lower class to NOT succeed, at all.

There is no one solution to solve the entire problem as there are too many variables to come up with one mass solution to solve the class war. Some people may very well have legitimate reasons for not being able to make it higher up the food chain....I get it. But I feel that a majority of lower class issues could be solved by plain out hard work.

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by Consultant

The challenge for government is to help the poor kid in the ghetto without taking away from the rich kid of priveledge. Why should the rich family not hook their son up? Continue the family status, provide for their son the very best they possibly can? As long as they didnt break any laws, IMHO, we have nothing to say about it. At all.

Now then...provide effective education for the children and parents of the poorer set and we are onto something.

The demonizing of the rich in this country is getting out of hand.

I posted the stats before but did you know there are something like 9 million Millionaires in the US and over a thousand billionaires?

There's nothing wrong with building and preserving wealth and the wealthy should not be penalized for their success because it "fee;s fair".

I know you didnt say any of that stuff and it may seem like I am putting words in your mouth but I promise that is not my intention.

No one is demonizing the rich here. The poor are the ones getting demonized. They are being called lazy, unfocused, and inferior, among other things. Since when did standing up for the poor become demonizing the rich? My question is why are some people here so quick to defend the handful of wealthy people over the scores of poor people? If you want to believe it is fine for the wealthy to hook their kids up, that's fine, but then don't pretend that everyone has equal opportunities. The poor, and particularly minorities, have far fewer opportunities to succeed than trust fund babies, no ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Apparently we will never agree that the opportunities are in fact equal, so we'll leave that one alone for now. Albeit I understand the climb up the mountain is far more steep for some than it is for others.

In my honest opinion, I feel that my views on the poor/lower class differ from that of others because of the area I live in and the demographics I live around. I live in South Louisiana, so naturally my views on social status being a product of laziness will differ from that than someone who lives in a different part of the country.

I can only make assumptions about this issue, using the first hand happenings that I have seen here in my state. I would say that a GREAT majority of the time, here in LA, people are at the bottom of the pole, because they choose to be there (see my free education from Pre-k through college a few pages back). Where I live, there literally is no reason for a majority of our lower class to NOT succeed, at all.

There is no one solution to solve the entire problem as there are too many variables to come up with one mass solution to solve the class war. Some people may very well have legitimate reasons for not being able to make it higher up the food chain....I get it. But I feel that a majority of lower class issues could be solved by plain out hard work.

Don't worry Obama is going to fix everything. lol i couldn't resist

Originally Posted by Consultant

I am just speaking in generalities. The solution of some of our politicians appears to be Robin-Hood domestic policy.

Take from the rich, give to the poor. That doesnt appear to have worked for the last 60 years. We still have a poverty problem, and always will - regardless of the marginal tax rate of the un-poor.

Well, except we don't have that type of policy in place, despite whatever you want to believe. Income disparity in the US is at its highest in decades, so, yet again, the facts dispute your completely made-up statements. Bush stacked things so in favor of the rich, that trying to step back toward equality somewhat is not a "Robin Hood" policy.


http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...en-more-gilded

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Really is that what was said? Or are you making things seem like you want them to be? Once again you keep making it sound like a poor black kid is in worse shape than a poor white kid. Poor is poor. If they both live in the getto broke as shit there might as well be brothers. You need to get past your color barrier and look at what the real problem is.

There is a problem when a THIRD of African Americans live in poverty compared to a TENTH of white people. If poverty was truly equal, the rates would be roughly the same among races. I'm not saying a poor black kid has different experiences than a poor white kid, but even that poor white kid has more opportunities than that poor black kid. You can pretend race doesn't mean anything, but that is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the stats.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by Consultant

I am just speaking in generalities. The solution of some of our politicians appears to be Robin-Hood domestic policy.

Take from the rich, give to the poor. That doesnt appear to have worked for the last 60 years. We still have a poverty problem, and always will - regardless of the marginal tax rate of the un-poor.

Well, except we don't have that type of policy in place, despite whatever you want to believe. Income disparity in the US is at its highest in decades, so, yet again, the facts dispute your completely made-up statements. Bush stacked things so in favor of the rich, that trying to step back toward equality somewhat is not a "Robin Hood" policy.


http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/200...en-more-gilded

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Really is that what was said? Or are you making things seem like you want them to be? Once again you keep making it sound like a poor black kid is in worse shape than a poor white kid. Poor is poor. If they both live in the getto broke as shit there might as well be brothers. You need to get past your color barrier and look at what the real problem is.

There is a problem when a THIRD of African Americans live in poverty compared to a TENTH of white people. If poverty was truly equal, the rates would be roughly the same among races. I'm not saying a poor black kid has different experiences than a poor white kid, but even that poor white kid has more opportunities than that poor black kid. You can pretend race doesn't mean anything, but that is the equivalent of sticking your head in the sand and ignoring the stats.

Well first i'll start with your little graph. Did you notice the section of the new tork times it was in? Let me help "opinion". Next did you see who made it? I'll help you with that to.
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/

EMMANUEL SAEZ
Professor of Economics


Curriculum Vitae



On leave at MIT during Fall 2009

Emmanuel Saez
MIT Department of Economics
50 Memorial Drive E52-252d
Cambridge MA 02142-1347
Phone: (617) 324-3666, FAX: (617) 253-6915
PAPERS BY TOPICS


Income and Wealth Inequality

"Income Inequality in the United States, 1913-1998" with Thomas Piketty, Quarterly Journal of Economics, 118(1), 2003, 1-39 (Longer updated version published in A.B. Atkinson and T. Piketty eds., Oxford University Press, 2007) (UPDATED TABLES AND FIGURES UPDATED TO 2007 in Excel format, August 2009)

UPDATED Summary for the broader public "Striking it Richer: The Evolution of Top Incomes in the United States", updated August 2009

Has Inequality Increased in the US? Response to Alan Reynolds' article in WSJ criticizing our estimates, January 2006

NEW "Top Incomes in the Long Run of History" with Tony Atkinson and Thomas Piketty, NBER Working Paper No. 15408, October 2009, submitted to the Journal of Economics Literature (Tables and Figures in Excel format)

Those are just the begining of his site. So what do you think might he be a little bias?

Next lets address your stance on how white poor kids have it better than poor black kids. What opportunities are avaliable for that white kid that arent for the black one. I don't remember every seeing a white scholarship fund.

So it's my opinion your sticking your head in the sand because you just want avoid the fact that poor is poor period. Minority or not if your broke as shit your broke as shit. But feel free to give some real stats that aren't made by some guy that is in no bias.

Originally Posted by [SWC

Erik Thorsen ]
*Disclaimer* Most of this post is not addressed to you Consultant, I know you're not pigeonholing me.

I'm more than willing to say that its cultural. In fact I said as much several posts back, but people seem to want to pigeonhole me into what their idea of a "PC liberal commy."

I don't believe in government handouts to solve poverty issues (For the third time).
I don't believe in "Robin Hood" economics.
I have nothing at all against the rich, and I understand how important they are to our country.

I have said several times that a lot of the problems faced by under privileged people arise from their own peers. In other words, its a lot harder for kids to pay attention in class in a poor school, because the other students, also living in poverty, are much more likely to act out and intimidate. I went to several bad schools and you will be ostracized if you study too hard, or do too well on tests. Other kids will call you a teacher's pet or something similar.

Children living in poverty have few good role models, and few good influences. If you're surrounded by gangbangers and drug dealers, if your dad (if you're lucky enough to have one) makes meth in the basement, if your older brother gets shot a few times a year, and your mom just doesn't give a shit, where do you get your good influences from?

What we keep coming back to is you (Death, not Consultant) want to put words in my mouth, you assume I think its the fault of the rich that the poor don't succeed. I don't care whose fault it is as I've said before, I'm not looking for someone to point fingers at. The bottom line is this: Certain groups of people are poor, uneducated and criminal at higher rates than others. No matter who's fault it is, this cycle unequivocally means that the playing field is not level period.

If you feel i was putting words in your mouth i apologise. I didn't mean to come across like that. I'm left with what do you think people should? You feel it's not fair that some have to work. Thats reality that is never going to change unless they hit it big on the redneck retirement plan.

All they can do is work harder, change their own life. No one is ever going to give it to them. As for positive role models sorry i feel thats a cop out. Along with many other thing that i feel are cop outs. I'm a firm believer in man up and do what you have to do. I'm a firm believer in discipline will get you many places and that includes both self discipline and parent discipline.

They don't more excuses to not make a better life. They have plenty of those. How about coming up with an excuse to make a better life instead of them just sitting around complaining about not having one.

Originally Posted by Consultant

Are you willing to concede that some of the problem associated with the black population you referenced might be cultural?

Look at parenthood...

There are ethnic differences in the prevalence of single-parent families. In 1999 the rate of single-parent families among black families was 56 percent; among Hispanic families, 32 percent; and among white families, 20 percent. Higher rates of black single-parent families result from higher rates of out-of-marriage adolescent childbearing within this group and higher divorce rates among black women.

Read more: Single-Parent Families - The Prevalence Of Single-parent Families In America http://social.jrank.org/pages/579/Si...#ixzz0XQh4zwP9

Women raising children with no father present is a major issue. It leads to higher instances of crime, violence, and poverty.

Here's more recent data from an article I found...

More than 70 percent of African-American children are born out of wedlock, with the majority raised by single mothers.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/980319/johnson.shtml

Public policy won't solve the problem of irresponsibility, not for blacks, whites, asians or hispanics; and people who make irresponsible choices with their private parts will tend to make irresponsible choices with money (buying booze and lotto tickets rather than books), and educational opportunities (slacking off at school), etc.

BOOM!!!!

There is a problem when a THIRD of African Americans live in poverty compared to a TENTH of white people. If poverty was truly equal, the rates would be roughly the same among races.

You are assuming that everyone has the same tendencies, the same level of morals, ethics, responsibility, common sense, work ethic, etc... They don't. Like I stated in my earlier posts, different cultures have different levels of those things I just mentioned. Some cultures believe that if they are born into a bad situation, the only way out is scratch and claw. Other cultures carry a sense of entitlement from generation to generation.

Wasn't that long ago that Irish folks couldn't even get jobs simply because people didn't want to hire them because of their nationality. Where are they now? Out in the working world, proving everyone who was "racist" against them wrong. Slavery ends in the latter half of the 1800's, and here we are today (120+ years later) making excuses for poor black projects and neighborhoods, blaming everyone else but them for their lack of success.

My parents were born into shitty conditions, so they made it their life's goal to ensure their kids and their kid's kids, wouldn't have to do the same, and guess what? It's working (already gave my story a few posts ago).

All these cries of it being unfair are at the fault of past generations who were too lazy and unconcerned with future generations to make what little of themselves they could so their kids would go above and beyond what they did.

So much time is spent playing the blame game and complaining about how unfair it is that "so and so" started rich and I started poor, so I shouldn't have to work to attain the same level, that those people are doing themselves and their future kids and grandkids a disservice.

Being from Southern Louisiana, I'm not afraid to explain the situation down here with Black Americans (or White ones for that matter). Generation after generation lives their lives most likely dropping out of school, living on foodstamps and working jobs that most likely won't ever yield them more than 25,000k a year. Their kids aren't taught any different and take this lifestyle as the norm, so they themselves follow in those footsteps. This cycle continues so on and so forth until one parent........one responsible parent who actually gives a damn about their kids more than just 3 squares a day and half decent clothes on their back......stands up and says "This isn't right. My child has potential and is capable of bettering himself/herself so they can get out of this rut that I've found myself in." Until someone stands up and breaks the cycle, poverty (here where I live) will continue to grow and maintain power over certain groups of people.