Thread: Arrest at Walmart leads to charges of racism

I have said several times that a lot of the problems faced by under privileged people arise from their own peers. In other words, its a lot harder for kids to pay attention in class in a poor school, because the other students, also living in poverty, are much more likely to act out and intimidate. I went to several bad schools and you will be ostracized if you study too hard, or do too well on tests. Other kids will call you a teacher's pet or something similar.

This is a very keen observation, which is easily solved by parents who get involved. It's a shame though that the parents in these situations aren't doing what they need to, to ensure their child is utilizing their free education properly to make good grades, get to college and get out of the hole.

The observation is so very true in most cases, but it's sad that sometimes the guardians of these children won't ensure that their child is doing they best they can.

Originally Posted by Consultant

Are you willing to concede that some of the problem associated with the black population you referenced might be cultural?

Look at parenthood...

There are ethnic differences in the prevalence of single-parent families. In 1999 the rate of single-parent families among black families was 56 percent; among Hispanic families, 32 percent; and among white families, 20 percent. Higher rates of black single-parent families result from higher rates of out-of-marriage adolescent childbearing within this group and higher divorce rates among black women.

Read more: Single-Parent Families - The Prevalence Of Single-parent Families In America http://social.jrank.org/pages/579/Si...#ixzz0XQh4zwP9

Women raising children with no father present is a major issue. It leads to higher instances of crime, violence, and poverty.

Here's more recent data from an article I found...

More than 70 percent of African-American children are born out of wedlock, with the majority raised by single mothers.

http://chronicle.uchicago.edu/980319/johnson.shtml

Public policy won't solve the problem of irresponsibility, not for blacks, whites, asians or hispanics; and people who make irresponsible choices with their private parts will tend to make irresponsible choices with money (buying booze and lotto tickets rather than books), and educational opportunities (slacking off at school), etc.

No, it's not a cultural black thing. To try and dismiss the problem as just a "cultural" thing actually completely ignores the problem. Everything you mentioned is a big problem, but what you are implying is that "they" are inherently different than us. We know they aren't because all we have to do is look at those that aren't in poverty. It is more the cycle of poverty that causes this. These people grow up without good role models and probably with one parent who has to work two or more jobs to support them, so they are left to their own devices. That's if their parent isn't a drug addict. These kids grow up like this, that's all they know, and the cycle continues. When you are poor, money is extremely tight and that leads to stress and other things, and that breaks up families.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Well first i'll start with your little graph. Did you notice the section of the new tork times it was in? Let me help "opinion". Next did you see who made it? I'll help you with that to.
http://elsa.berkeley.edu/~saez/

EMMANUEL SAEZ
Professor of Economics


Curriculum Vitae



On leave at MIT during Fall 2009

Emmanuel Saez
MIT Department of Economics
50 Memorial Drive E52-252d
Cambridge MA 02142-1347
Phone: (617) 324-3666, FAX: (617) 253-6915
PAPERS BY TOPICS


Income and Wealth Inequality

"Income Inequality in the United States, 1913-1998" with Thomas Piketty, Quarterly Journal of Economics, 118(1), 2003, 1-39 (Longer updated version published in A.B. Atkinson and T. Piketty eds., Oxford University Press, 2007) (UPDATED TABLES AND FIGURES UPDATED TO 2007 in Excel format, August 2009)

UPDATED Summary for the broader public "Striking it Richer: The Evolution of Top Incomes in the United States", updated August 2009

Has Inequality Increased in the US? Response to Alan Reynolds' article in WSJ criticizing our estimates, January 2006

NEW "Top Incomes in the Long Run of History" with Tony Atkinson and Thomas Piketty, NBER Working Paper No. 15408, October 2009, submitted to the Journal of Economics Literature (Tables and Figures in Excel format)

Those are just the begining of his site. So what do you think might he be a little bias?

Thanks, I guess? Yeah, the Krugman piece was in opinion, but the graph and report are from MIT and that professor, not Krugman and not opinion. Can you are can you not refute his numbers about income inequality?

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Next lets address your stance on how white poor kids have it better than poor black kids. What opportunities are avaliable for that white kid that arent for the black one. I don't remember every seeing a white scholarship fund.

So it's my opinion your sticking your head in the sand because you just want avoid the fact that poor is poor period. Minority or not if your broke as shit your broke as shit. But feel free to give some real stats that aren't made by some guy that is in no bias.

I wasn't disputing that being poor effects people of all races. I am saying that poverty affects minorities far more than it does white people, and that is an undeniable fact. I have shown the figures.

No, it's not a cultural black thing. To try and dismiss the problem as just a "cultural" thing actually completely ignores the problem.

So suggest a solution that doesn't involved taking from the successful and that doesn't require taxpayers to fork over cash that will be given out to the "poor" without incentives.

If we are going to give out money left and right via welfare and foodstamps, why not make it incentive based? Perhaps a matching of some sort. You work X amount of hours per week and we'll match your pay. Stipulations? Your children drop below a 2.5 GPA in school and you are put on probation for financial assistance....Betcha parents give a shit about their kids education now....

We can't just give out money to people and think "Okay they will use this money properly and it will most certainly get them out of the rut they are in"....hasn't happened, won't happen. People are just too stupid for that to work.

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

You are assuming that everyone has the same tendencies, the same level of morals, ethics, responsibility, common sense, work ethic, etc... They don't. Like I stated in my earlier posts, different cultures have different levels of those things I just mentioned. Some cultures believe that if they are born into a bad situation, the only way out is scratch and claw. Other cultures carry a sense of entitlement from generation to generation.

Wasn't that long ago that Irish folks couldn't even get jobs simply because people didn't want to hire them because of their nationality. Where are they now? Out in the working world, proving everyone who was "racist" against them wrong. Slavery ends in the latter half of the 1800's, and here we are today (120+ years later) making excuses for poor black projects and neighborhoods, blaming everyone else but them for their lack of success.

My parents were born into shitty conditions, so they made it their life's goal to ensure their kids and their kid's kids, wouldn't have to do the same, and guess what? It's working (already gave my story a few posts ago).

All these cries of it being unfair are at the fault of past generations who were too lazy and unconcerned with future generations to make what little of themselves they could so their kids would go above and beyond what they did.

So much time is spent playing the blame game and complaining about how unfair it is that "so and so" started rich and I started poor, so I shouldn't have to work to attain the same level, that those people are doing themselves and their future kids and grandkids a disservice.

Being from Southern Louisiana, I'm not afraid to explain the situation down here with Black Americans (or White ones for that matter). Generation after generation lives their lives most likely dropping out of school, living on foodstamps and working jobs that most likely won't ever yield them more than 25,000k a year. Their kids aren't taught any different and take this lifestyle as the norm, so they themselves follow in those footsteps. This cycle continues so on and so forth until one parent........one responsible parent who actually gives a damn about their kids more than just 3 squares a day and half decent clothes on their back......stands up and says "This isn't right. My child has potential and is capable of bettering himself/herself so they can get out of this rut that I've found myself in." Until someone stands up and breaks the cycle, poverty (here where I live) will continue to grow and maintain power over certain groups of people.

Yeah, I get it. You think the "white culture" is one to "scratch and claw out" and the "black culture" is to carry a sense of entitlement. I've understood that was your point for a while now, I just disagree vehemently with that latent racism. I just don't think you understand from a sociological viewpoint the problems. You, like others here, have an overly simplistic view of the problems and their solutions. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit where you are from. That doesn't give you any authority in understanding problems. Like I said before, I am from the outskirts of Detroit, so I see the same things you do, but I don't try and bring that up to validate my points.

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

This is a very keen observation, which is easily solved by parents who get involved. It's a shame though that the parents in these situations aren't doing what they need to, to ensure their child is utilizing their free education properly to make good grades, get to college and get out of the hole.

The observation is so very true in most cases, but it's sad that sometimes the guardians of these children won't ensure that their child is doing they best they can.

Don't be so naive to believe it is as easy as that. How can you get a parent to pay attention when they have to work two or more jobs to get by or are drug addicts?

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

You are assuming that everyone has the same tendencies, the same level of morals, ethics, responsibility, common sense, work ethic, etc... They don't. Like I stated in my earlier posts, different cultures have different levels of those things I just mentioned. Some cultures believe that if they are born into a bad situation, the only way out is scratch and claw. Other cultures carry a sense of entitlement from generation to generation.

Wasn't that long ago that Irish folks couldn't even get jobs simply because people didn't want to hire them because of their nationality. Where are they now? Out in the working world, proving everyone who was "racist" against them wrong. Slavery ends in the latter half of the 1800's, and here we are today (120+ years later) making excuses for poor black projects and neighborhoods, blaming everyone else but them for their lack of success.

My parents were born into shitty conditions, so they made it their life's goal to ensure their kids and their kid's kids, wouldn't have to do the same, and guess what? It's working (already gave my story a few posts ago).

All these cries of it being unfair are at the fault of past generations who were too lazy and unconcerned with future generations to make what little of themselves they could so their kids would go above and beyond what they did.

So much time is spent playing the blame game and complaining about how unfair it is that "so and so" started rich and I started poor, so I shouldn't have to work to attain the same level, that those people are doing themselves and their future kids and grandkids a disservice.

Being from Southern Louisiana, I'm not afraid to explain the situation down here with Black Americans (or White ones for that matter). Generation after generation lives their lives most likely dropping out of school, living on foodstamps and working jobs that most likely won't ever yield them more than 25,000k a year. Their kids aren't taught any different and take this lifestyle as the norm, so they themselves follow in those footsteps. This cycle continues so on and so forth until one parent........one responsible parent who actually gives a damn about their kids more than just 3 squares a day and half decent clothes on their back......stands up and says "This isn't right. My child has potential and is capable of bettering himself/herself so they can get out of this rut that I've found myself in." Until someone stands up and breaks the cycle, poverty (here where I live) will continue to grow and maintain power over certain groups of people.

Yeah, I get it. You think the "white culture" is one to "scratch and claw out" and the "black culture" is to carry a sense of entitlement. I've understood that was your point for a while now, I just disagree vehemently with that latent racism. I just don't think you understand from a sociological viewpoint the problems. You, like others here, have an overly simplistic view of the problems and their solutions. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit where you are from. That doesn't give you any authority in understanding problems. Like I said before, I am from the outskirts of Detroit, so I see the same things you do, but I don't try and bring that up to validate my points.

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

This is a very keen observation, which is easily solved by parents who get involved. It's a shame though that the parents in these situations aren't doing what they need to, to ensure their child is utilizing their free education properly to make good grades, get to college and get out of the hole.

The observation is so very true in most cases, but it's sad that sometimes the guardians of these children won't ensure that their child is doing they best they can.

Don't be so naive to believe it is as easy as that. How can you get a parent to pay attention when they have to work two or more jobs to get by or are drug addicts?

And you and I are done on this issue. I am no where close to being racist, not by a long shot. You pick and chose things out of what I post, then twist them all around, and proceed to call me racist, when I made absolutely no statements leading you to rationally believe so. If you think anyone that says anything negative about Black Americans is a racist then you need to re-evaluate your though process.

I try to be understanding of your viewpoints, but I draw a line when people start insinuate that I am a racist because they lack any discernment skills. Go bask in your ignorance, I'm quite tired of arguing with someone who is so damn naive.

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

And you and I are done. I am no where close to being racist, not by a long shot. You pick and chose things out of what I post, then twist them all around, and proceed to call me racist, when I made absolutely no statements leading you to rationally believe so. If you think anyone that says anything negative about Black Americans is a racist then you need to re-evaluate your though process.

Oy vey. You tried to apply distinct traits to both races and get pissed when the latent racism gets pointed out? It's one thing to be critical, it's another to say one has a "sense of entitlement" while another wants to "scratch and claw their way out." I stand by what I said.

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

I try to be understanding of your viewpoints, but I draw a line when people start insinuate that I am a racist because they lack any discernment skills. Go bask in your ignorance, I'm quite tired of arguing with someone who is so damn naive.

You're lying. You have never tried to understand because you did not make ONE sociological argument to support your view. NOT ONE. You pretend you understand the situation because of where you are from, and try to use that to exude some sort of authority on the matter. From that, you make incredibly naive statements that this all could be fixed simply by parents paying attention, as if that can magically happen overnight. If that's not naivety and ignorance, I don't know what is.

I love how everyone sits here complaining about the poverty yet we have one of the lowest poverty rates in the world. Now how could it be that our problem is not unrealisticly out of control and yet their are only 20 countries with less on the entire globe.

Then i find this which kind of makes what you guys are argueing a moot point.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...2/ai_78629401/

African Americans, along with the rest of America, are seeing improvements in poverty and income statistics. In 1999, the poverty rate for African Americans dropped to 23.6%, the lowest for blacks ever recorded by the U.S. Census Bureau. This amounts to about 700,000 fewer statistically poor African Americans in 1999 (8.4 million)than in 1998 (9.1 million). In 1997, there were 9.1 million African Americans in poverty, or 26.5 % of the black population. This number was down from 29.3% in 1995.

White Blacks
Poverty
1995 11.2% 29.3%
1997 11.0% 26.5%
1999 9.8% 23.6%

Income(households)
1995 $35,766 $22,393
1997 $38,972 $25,050
1999 $42,504 $27,910



•About 9.8 percent (7.7 million) of the nation’s families were in poverty in 2006. Married-couple families had a poverty rate of 4.9 percent (2.9 million), compared with 28.3 percent (4.1 million) for female-householder, no-husband-present families and 13.2 percent (671,000) for those with a male householder and no wife present. The poverty rate for these types of families in poverty showed no statistically significant change between 2005 and 2006.

•For Hispanics, 20.6 percent were in poverty in 2006, down from 21.8 percent in 2005. Poverty rates remained statistically unchanged for non-Hispanic whites (8.2 percent), blacks (24.3 percent) and Asians (10.3 percent) in 2006.

http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/...th/010583.html

http://www.censusscope.org/us/map_poverty.html

The poverty level has been dropping for years until we hit this recession. So i'm guessing when we come out of it then it will go back to dropping.

I guess i might as well address the fact you guys keep pointing out that the blacks are the ones primarliy struggling with poverty. Here are the numbers from the 2000 census in new one is new year.

White . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 211,460,626 75.1
Black or African American . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 34,658,190 12.3

The rest is basic math.
Blacks at 24.3% 8,421,940 below poverty level
Whites at 8.2% 17,339,771 below poverty level

So please by all means you tell me how whites have it better than black in poverty.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

You are assuming that everyone has the same tendencies, the same level of morals, ethics, responsibility, common sense, work ethic, etc... They don't. Like I stated in my earlier posts, different cultures have different levels of those things I just mentioned. Some cultures believe that if they are born into a bad situation, the only way out is scratch and claw. Other cultures carry a sense of entitlement from generation to generation.

Wasn't that long ago that Irish folks couldn't even get jobs simply because people didn't want to hire them because of their nationality. Where are they now? Out in the working world, proving everyone who was "racist" against them wrong. Slavery ends in the latter half of the 1800's, and here we are today (120+ years later) making excuses for poor black projects and neighborhoods, blaming everyone else but them for their lack of success.

My parents were born into shitty conditions, so they made it their life's goal to ensure their kids and their kid's kids, wouldn't have to do the same, and guess what? It's working (already gave my story a few posts ago).

All these cries of it being unfair are at the fault of past generations who were too lazy and unconcerned with future generations to make what little of themselves they could so their kids would go above and beyond what they did.

So much time is spent playing the blame game and complaining about how unfair it is that "so and so" started rich and I started poor, so I shouldn't have to work to attain the same level, that those people are doing themselves and their future kids and grandkids a disservice.

Being from Southern Louisiana, I'm not afraid to explain the situation down here with Black Americans (or White ones for that matter). Generation after generation lives their lives most likely dropping out of school, living on foodstamps and working jobs that most likely won't ever yield them more than 25,000k a year. Their kids aren't taught any different and take this lifestyle as the norm, so they themselves follow in those footsteps. This cycle continues so on and so forth until one parent........one responsible parent who actually gives a damn about their kids more than just 3 squares a day and half decent clothes on their back......stands up and says "This isn't right. My child has potential and is capable of bettering himself/herself so they can get out of this rut that I've found myself in." Until someone stands up and breaks the cycle, poverty (here where I live) will continue to grow and maintain power over certain groups of people.

Yeah, I get it. You think the "white culture" is one to "scratch and claw out" and the "black culture" is to carry a sense of entitlement. I've understood that was your point for a while now, I just disagree vehemently with that latent racism. I just don't think you understand from a sociological viewpoint the problems. You, like others here, have an overly simplistic view of the problems and their solutions. Quite frankly, I don't give a shit where you are from. That doesn't give you any authority in understanding problems. Like I said before, I am from the outskirts of Detroit, so I see the same things you do, but I don't try and bring that up to validate my points.

Originally Posted by rock_lobster

This is a very keen observation, which is easily solved by parents who get involved. It's a shame though that the parents in these situations aren't doing what they need to, to ensure their child is utilizing their free education properly to make good grades, get to college and get out of the hole.

The observation is so very true in most cases, but it's sad that sometimes the guardians of these children won't ensure that their child is doing they best they can.

Don't be so naive to believe it is as easy as that. How can you get a parent to pay attention when they have to work two or more jobs to get by or are drug addicts?

That sir is a cop out. If they are doing that to make a better life for themselve or more likely their children then you make the time. The person doing that has already figured that out. So there isn't much point to discussing it.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I love how everyone sits here complaining about the poverty yet we have one of the lowest poverty rates in the world. Now how could it be that our problem is not unrealisticly out of control and yet their are only 20 countries with less on the entire globe.

Then i find this which kind of makes what you guys are argueing a moot point.

We are not comparing our poverty level to other countries. We are discussing poverty in the U.S. But even the facts you are showing support what I have been saying for a while now. Blacks have higher rates of poverty and make far less than whites. So, again, the idea that everyone has equal opportunities and equal chances is false, and you just helped to disprove that.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

That sir is a cop out. If they are doing that to make a better life for themselve or more likely their children then you make the time. The person doing that has already figured that out. So there isn't much point to discussing it.

It's not a "cop out," and I don't even understand why you are saying that. We are discussing WHY this exists, and that is a reason WHY. We are not arguing about what they should or shouldn't do.