Thread: Arrest at Walmart leads to charges of racism

Originally Posted by [SWC

Erik Thorsen ]That's just not true. You can't always make it out! That's a terrible insult to the countless people in history who did everything we could expect them to and more, but failed anyway. Shit doesn't always work out okay. Sometimes there are happy endings (like your story), but a lot of the time there's not.

I liked your two posts, Erik, and I want to comment on this specifically because it is a point people miss. People who think that the same opportunities exist in poor, urban areas and affluent, suburban areas haven't study any sociology. Poverty is a vicious cycle that is extremely difficult to break for many of the reasons you listed. 33.2% of blacks and 30.6% of Hispanics live below the poverty line, as opposed to 12.3% whites. Source.

What about prison incarceration rates? For blacks, it is 2,531 per 100,000. For Hispanics, it is 957 per 100,000. For whites, it is 393 per 100,000. Source. I'd read more of that link, too. It is extremely eye-opening. In 2007, the prison population was 38.2% black, 20.8% Hispanic, and 34% white. Source. The make-up of the U.S. population is 13.5% black, 14.8% Hispanic, and 74% white. Source.

So what you have are blacks and Hispanics vastly overrepresented in poverty rates and prison rates, along with high teen pregnancy rates, as you showed, and lower standards and less education. All these factors lead to dysfunctional families and more problems, and I barely scratched the surface here. So to say that everyone has equal opportunities is nothing but an idealistic view that completely ignores all the facts and figures and sociological understanding of society, and I think we agree here.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Don't get upset or anything. I'm not trying to say the KKK isn't a piece of shit organisation because we all know it is. However it was started under the guise of "protecting the rights of whites". That is not the same as supremacy like the neo nazis.

You really should look into the history of the KKK before you try and defend it and downplay their hate. The KKK was founded by former Confederate soldiers who advocated a return to white supremacy and who used violence to intimidate blacks. They only allowed whites who supported a "white man's" government to join. To say that they were founded to "protect white's rights" is painfully ignorant of the real history of the KKK. It is exactly the same as the Neo-Nazi's of today, many of whom also claim Klan membership.

The NAACP, as someone else here said, what headed by many whites and Jews for a period up until the 70's.

Once again because appearntly you suffer from "i'm going to get what i want out what someone says shit".
I'm not sticking up for the KKK. You should get past your emotional feeling of the subject and read what i said again. Your opinion of what the KKK started from and what they stand for are irrelevant to what i said. I do not like the KKK period but that does not change the fact it was formed under the "guise" of "protecting the rights of white people".

So stop trying to look past what i said to what you want it to say.

Originally Posted by [SWC

Erik Thorsen ]

Simply not true. Hard work and dreams are what made this country what it is today. You can want a better life all you want and nothing will change. Those that put aside the misconception that they are owed a better life or someone should help them get a better life are the ones that will succeed. They already know what they want, are willing to sacrific to get it, and will take every step they can one at a time.

Striving, working hard and big dreams are amazing things, and they are a big part of American culture and success. Unfortunately they do not in any way guarantee success. You don't think every person who opens a new restaruant wanted it? You don't think they were dreaming of owning their own business and being successful? Well a lot of them fail. They dream, they work, they fail. Why? Because it takes more than hard work to succeed some times.

None of the items you list are what make someone strive to get a better life. Nor is it what makes a better life. Public schools are under funded sure but many people still manage to take out of them everything they can and get the life that they want later. Sex ed has nothing to do with the topic neither does the war on drugs but seeing as you want to use it lets.

I'll explain how sex ed is related to this conversation. Since we're on the subject of race and poverty, have you taken a gander at teen pregnancy rates, and STD rates for minorities and people in poverty lately? Here check it out: Quoting from the article I will link at the bottom of this post.

# Black women have the highest teen pregnancy rate (134 per 1,000 women ages 15–19), followed by Hispanics (131 per 1,000) and non-Hispanic whites (48 per 1,000).

This is a huge social issue, and one that good sex education can help to control.

Lets see you want to end the war on drugs as a way to better the life of the poor. Just how does that play out for you? I don't see it playing out well at all. Drugs rempant in the streets for everyone just doesn't make a better liofe in my boat. If you want to say people are in jail for sales or use when they shouldn't be. Then again how does that work for you?

So your saying we should just stop going after those that break the law just so it makes their life easier. Sorry i don't buy it. Selling drugs is a fucking cop out for hard work. Your not striving to better yourself selling drugs nor are you striving to better yourself by using drugs.

You want a positive change? How about locking these people up for much longer sentences so they wont be a bad influence on those that are trying to better themselves. On top of how many kids are influenced by these pieces of shit that spend their time destroying lifes of anyone they can. Just so they can make money and live like kings on the poor side of town. There is no excuse for these people they already get far better treatment than they deserve.

I would agree to locking these fuckers away for life and taking every damn dime they had and every single thing they own and sell it. Then use that money for a bueatification project in the area they came from.

Actually its funny how relevant the war on drugs is. Its a prime example of trying really really hard and doing your best and still consistantly failing. The war on drugs is a total complete utter failure. Drugs running rampant in the streets? They already do!

I'll tell you how this works for me. We stop the war on drugs, tax payers save millions. Now instead of locking up thousands of non violent teens for what is basically a personal problem. Instead of putting these teens in max security prisons (Also costing tax payers a fortune) where they can learn life lessons from violent fucking gangsters and murderers. Instead of that these kids could be offered counseling, rehab programs. They could stay in school, and maintain what little support structure they have. All the war on drugs has done is made criminals richer, and brought in a whole new generation of "soldiers" to make our streets bloody.

Once again you go in the past for the KKK when everything that has been said is from this time. What they did then was unexcusable but that does not change anything and it never will. You can have an opinion of what they stood for and i think we share the same perspective on that but it does not change why it was started. That is my point.

I'm going to the past because that's where you find founding principals. Is that not what we're talking about? Their ideology may have changed now I don't know, but they were founded on supremacy and hate.

Teen pregnancy rates.
http://www.sexedlibrary.org/index.cfm?pageId=797

LOL sorry but as a small business owner all i can say is if a business fails it's due to the person running the business. You can put any variable spin on it you want. If your not willing to sacrifice then yes your business IS going to fail.

Those who own a small business have a statement i'm sure you've heard at some point in time. You don't own your business it owns you. That is fact and thats why i have been in business for 10 years. I've seen plenty come and go and they all have the same common factor. The person that owns them think it's play time now because a little money is coming in.

Now on to your sex ed class. You want to attribute any of this to lack of education? Between 6th and 12th grade i went to schools in south philly, baltimore, st. loius, melbourne beach, edgewood md., sanford fl., and a couple others i'm having issues with remembering at the moment but they all have 1 thing in common. The sex ed class was the same in every single one. The point being it goes to wanting to change your life. Being poor doesn't make you pregnant nor does it give you hiv. So i'm just going to dismiss this one all together.

Of course there is that thing about parents taking an active role in what there children do thing but hell we don't want anyone to sacrifice any of there valuable time helping their kids have a better life than they did. So sure blame it on the government or school system or society if it makes you feel better.

The war on drugs is a failure? Why ? Why is it a failure? Because there are still drugs? Thats just a stupid statement. Where would we be without this failure of a war? Are you willing to be the one that makes the call that could possible allow 1 million kids to be addicted to meth because it's for sale in 7-11? Or how about the first dozen that die from cocaine purchased at dunkin donuts being used as a sprinkle for increased sales?

Thats the equivalant of saying we failed as a society because people still die of cancer and we haven't stopped it yet. Are drugs always going to be around? Sure they are but that does not mean you stop policing them because no one wants there 10 year old daughter out hooking for that next hit of crack.

Now back to the KKK thing again. Show me something from them that says there are about supremacy. Then i will buy into it as for now i have to go with what i have read. Regardless my feelings on the group and the people in it which is "protect rights of whites".

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Once again because appearntly you suffer from "i'm going to get what i want out what someone says shit".
I'm not sticking up for the KKK. You should get past your emotional feeling of the subject and read what i said again. Your opinion of what the KKK started from and what they stand for are irrelevant to what i said. I do not like the KKK period but that does not change the fact it was formed under the "guise" of "protecting the rights of white people".

So stop trying to look past what i said to what you want it to say.

I stand by what I said that you are downplaying the hate fomented by the KKK. I'm not saying you like them or support them, but I think you are attempting to semi-legitimize them to use in a dishonest manner to attack the NAACP, and I am not going to let it go unchallenged. The KKK absolutely was not founded to "protect the rights of white people." That is completely made-up and I have no idea where you are getting that from. It's certainly not from the annals of history. They were founded by Confederate soldiers who wanted the return of white supremacy and they sought to achieve that through violence directed towards minorities, particularly blacks, with the intention of intimidation.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by [SWC

Erik Thorsen ]That's just not true. You can't always make it out! That's a terrible insult to the countless people in history who did everything we could expect them to and more, but failed anyway. Shit doesn't always work out okay. Sometimes there are happy endings (like your story), but a lot of the time there's not.

I liked your two posts, Erik, and I want to comment on this specifically because it is a point people miss. People who think that the same opportunities exist in poor, urban areas and affluent, suburban areas haven't study any sociology. Poverty is a vicious cycle that is extremely difficult to break for many of the reasons you listed. 33.2% of blacks and 30.6% of Hispanics live below the poverty line, as opposed to 12.3% whites. Source.

What about prison incarceration rates? For blacks, it is 2,531 per 100,000. For Hispanics, it is 957 per 100,000. For whites, it is 393 per 100,000. Source. I'd read more of that link, too. It is extremely eye-opening. In 2007, the prison population was 38.2% black, 20.8% Hispanic, and 34% white. Source. The make-up of the U.S. population is 13.5% black, 14.8% Hispanic, and 74% white. Source.

So what you have are blacks and Hispanics vastly overrepresented in poverty rates and prison rates, along with high teen pregnancy rates, as you showed, and lower standards and less education. All these factors lead to dysfunctional families and more problems, and I barely scratched the surface here. So to say that everyone has equal opportunities is nothing but an idealistic view that completely ignores all the facts and figures and sociological understanding of society, and I think we agree here.

So how does any of that lead to they have less of a chance to strive, work hard, and make a better life? Have you ever been to one of those schools in the poor area? I sure as hell have. They teach the same thing but whats different is the amount of people paying attention. Society did not fail them. They failed society.

They lack focus, dedication, and deligence. That in no way means the are owed a damn thing. If anything it means they now have to work harder when they decide that they now would like a better life.

Originally Posted by [SWC

Erik Thorsen ]

Simply not true. Hard work and dreams are what made this country what it is today. You can want a better life all you want and nothing will change. Those that put aside the misconception that they are owed a better life or someone should help them get a better life are the ones that will succeed. They already know what they want, are willing to sacrific to get it, and will take every step they can one at a time.

Striving, working hard and big dreams are amazing things, and they are a big part of American culture and success. Unfortunately they do not in any way guarantee success. You don't think every person who opens a new restaruant wanted it? You don't think they were dreaming of owning their own business and being successful? Well a lot of them fail. They dream, they work, they fail. Why? Because it takes more than hard work to succeed some times.

None of the items you list are what make someone strive to get a better life. Nor is it what makes a better life. Public schools are under funded sure but many people still manage to take out of them everything they can and get the life that they want later. Sex ed has nothing to do with the topic neither does the war on drugs but seeing as you want to use it lets.

I'll explain how sex ed is related to this conversation. Since we're on the subject of race and poverty, have you taken a gander at teen pregnancy rates, and STD rates for minorities and people in poverty lately? Here check it out: Quoting from the article I will link at the bottom of this post.

# Black women have the highest teen pregnancy rate (134 per 1,000 women ages 15–19), followed by Hispanics (131 per 1,000) and non-Hispanic whites (48 per 1,000).

This is a huge social issue, and one that good sex education can help to control.

Lets see you want to end the war on drugs as a way to better the life of the poor. Just how does that play out for you? I don't see it playing out well at all. Drugs rempant in the streets for everyone just doesn't make a better liofe in my boat. If you want to say people are in jail for sales or use when they shouldn't be. Then again how does that work for you?

So your saying we should just stop going after those that break the law just so it makes their life easier. Sorry i don't buy it. Selling drugs is a fucking cop out for hard work. Your not striving to better yourself selling drugs nor are you striving to better yourself by using drugs.

You want a positive change? How about locking these people up for much longer sentences so they wont be a bad influence on those that are trying to better themselves. On top of how many kids are influenced by these pieces of shit that spend their time destroying lifes of anyone they can. Just so they can make money and live like kings on the poor side of town. There is no excuse for these people they already get far better treatment than they deserve.

I would agree to locking these fuckers away for life and taking every damn dime they had and every single thing they own and sell it. Then use that money for a bueatification project in the area they came from.

Actually its funny how relevant the war on drugs is. Its a prime example of trying really really hard and doing your best and still consistantly failing. The war on drugs is a total complete utter failure. Drugs running rampant in the streets? They already do!

I'll tell you how this works for me. We stop the war on drugs, tax payers save millions. Now instead of locking up thousands of non violent teens for what is basically a personal problem. Instead of putting these teens in max security prisons (Also costing tax payers a fortune) where they can learn life lessons from violent fucking gangsters and murderers. Instead of that these kids could be offered counseling, rehab programs. They could stay in school, and maintain what little support structure they have. All the war on drugs has done is made criminals richer, and brought in a whole new generation of "soldiers" to make our streets bloody.

Once again you go in the past for the KKK when everything that has been said is from this time. What they did then was unexcusable but that does not change anything and it never will. You can have an opinion of what they stood for and i think we share the same perspective on that but it does not change why it was started. That is my point.

I'm going to the past because that's where you find founding principals. Is that not what we're talking about? Their ideology may have changed now I don't know, but they were founded on supremacy and hate.

Teen pregnancy rates.
http://www.sexedlibrary.org/index.cfm?pageId=797

Oh i forgot about the ones in jail. Those people are there because they did there normal thing. Choose the easy way. We wouldn't want them to actually work hard or anything. Just wait for the phone to ring and make that money. You say they are getting worse being in prison. I say they should be there. I would much rather have them in there than on the street infecting others with there garbage.

Originally Posted by Fovezer

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

Once again because appearntly you suffer from "i'm going to get what i want out what someone says shit".
I'm not sticking up for the KKK. You should get past your emotional feeling of the subject and read what i said again. Your opinion of what the KKK started from and what they stand for are irrelevant to what i said. I do not like the KKK period but that does not change the fact it was formed under the "guise" of "protecting the rights of white people".

So stop trying to look past what i said to what you want it to say.

I stand by what I said that you are downplaying the hate fomented by the KKK. I'm not saying you like them or support them, but I think you are attempting to semi-legitimize them to use in a dishonest manner to attack the NAACP, and I am not going to let it go unchallenged. The KKK absolutely was not founded to "protect the rights of white people." That is completely made-up and I have no idea where you are getting that from. It's certainly not from the annals of history. They were founded by Confederate soldiers who wanted the return of white supremacy and they sought to achieve that through violence directed towards minorities, particularly blacks, with the intention of intimidation.

I'm not down playing anything. Did i ever once say any of the shit never happened? No i didn't. There is no such thing as a dishonest attempt to attack the NAACP. I will attack them out right like i said earlier. They as well as the KKK are the focal point of why racism is going strong today.

I will say you may want to start reading about stuff like maybe the KKK before you enter into a debate with someone who said what the have read before but just for shits and giggles i goggled it for you. This is from there page.

This tyranny took the voting rights, property rights and the right to possess weapons away from the veterans of the Confederate Army and their families. At this time, the Klan grew by leaps and bounds across the south, becoming a protective order that defended dispossessed Whites from persecution.

and i'm going to be really honest on this one. I thought it was funny to see that the KKK was an LLC. Next time read more than the first paragraph.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

So how does any of that lead to they have less of a chance to strive, work hard, and make a better life? Have you ever been to one of those schools in the poor area? I sure as hell have. They teach the same thing but whats different is the amount of people paying attention. Society did not fail them. They failed society.

They lack focus, dedication, and deligence. That in no way means the are owed a damn thing. If anything it means they now have to work harder when they decide that they now would like a better life.

I live on the outskirts of Detroit. I know exactly what is going on in these neighborhoods. I've seen it first-hand, and I know what the problems are. The idea that these kids have the same opportunities and same chances in life as I was able to have is absolutely nuts. No other word for it. I recommend if you truly want to understand this issue, take a sociology class, because you are completely missing the underlying problems and not understanding them in their larger context.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I'm not down playing anything. Did i ever once say any of the shit ever happened? No i didn't. There is no such thing as a dishonest attempt to attack the NAACP. I will attack them out right like i said earlier. They as well as the KKK are the focal point of why racism is going strong today.

If you have a problem with the NAACP, that's one thing. It is another to do something as stupid as trying to compare them to the KKK, whom have even killed members of the NAACP.

Originally Posted by deathgodusmc

I will say you may want to start reading about stuff like maybe the KKK before you enter into a debate with someone who said what the have read before but just for shits and giggles i goggled it for you. This is from there page.

This tyranny took the voting rights, property rights and the right to possess weapons away from the veterans of the Confederate Army and their families. At this time, the Klan grew by leaps and bounds across the south, becoming a protective order that defended dispossessed Whites from persecution.

and i'm going to be really honest on this one. I thought it was funny to see that the KKK was an LLC. Next time read more than the first paragraph.

Gee, we know what good people Klansmen are, so obviously whatever is on a site of one the many modern klan groups has to be true! A handful of Confederate military members lost the right to vote, but it wasn't because they were white. Maybe it had something to do with committing treason against the United States? Still in the South, poor people of both races were disenfranchised, but they weren't fighting for those people. They were too busy making sure no blacks were able to attain equal rights as some whites and they sought to accomplish that with violence.

Originally Posted by [SWC

Erik Thorsen ]
So what is it Death. Do Black and Hispanic Americans have trouble paying attention in school and staying out of trouble because they are an inferior race of violent idiots, or is it that they start with every disadvantage in those areas, and so find themselves in these situations far more often. Nature or nurture which is it?

I grew up in the ghetto. There was a gas station right down the street, I mean walking distance, where people sold drugs every night. I've been to some really bad schools. And yeah, a lot of the kids don't pay attention, and a lot of them have attitude problems. I already explained why, or did you miss it? Try not having a dad around, try having a mom who's addicted to cocaine, try having an older brother who's out gangbanging every night and see how much you feel like doing schoolwork.

You don't seem to get my point. Its not that its the governments fault that there is a lack of good parenting in poverty areas, its not the governments fault that these kids have such terrible childhoods. Its not about whose fault it is. Its about the fact that THESE KIDS DO NOT HAVE AN EQUAL PLAYING FIELD with the rest of society. To think they do is absolutely insane. So when you say you think we all have an equal opportunity and the only reason these kids are failing is their laziness, I take that as offensive.

As for why the war on drugs is a failure? There are more drug users today than when we started the "War", drugs are cheaper, stronger and more available than before. We have overcrowded prisons and thousands of otherwise decent kids in prison. Not to mention the taxpayer bill.

Yeah, a real success story.

Here's the issue I'm having with your KKK argument Death. You're taking their word for it basically. It would be like if Hitler said "No I totally love Jews, I'm just here for German rights." The KKK murdered hundreds of black Americans, they are supremacist, they are hateful period.


It comes down to this: We all have the same body to work with. We can all either be lazy or work hard. Some of us are so privileged that we can be lazy and succeed. Some of us our so under privileged that we can work very hard and fail. That's something I have a problem with.

No it's none of that. They made a choice. The same as every white, black, hispanic, and asian in every school to include the ones that these idiots come from that claim it's because i'm poor i have to do this. If it was about how much money is in the back then only the rich would succeed and that would be the end of it.

Yet here we are talking about how some don't. So i guess it comes down to the choices each make in their own life that determine wether or not they fail. Poverty does not bread proverty. Do you know what does though? Laziness

A gas station down the street where they sell drugs? I'm not going to put that down but i live 1/2 mile from the police station. There is a park right next to it. They sell drugs there. The rest is nothing more than an excuse to fail. I don't buy into that garbage been there done that. Made my choice and yes it is a choice for everyone.

They most certainly do have a level playing field to succeed. Success is a matter of opinion. It doesn't have to be money, a house, or a family. They made a choice to not pay attention, to not do homework, to not go to college. None of those were ever taken away from them and left with a kid in the suburbs.

More people on drugs now than when the war on drugs began. Kind of convenant that there way more people now as well huh. What 1000's of kids are in prison for drugs? Enlighten me on this one. Are you reffering to juvenile hall? Because thats where kids go. The rest are grown ups and most of the ones that would be considered a minute issue go to county lock up or jail if you will. Prison is usually left for those to stupid to even realise the state was trying to push them into making the right decision.

I'm still waiting on an arguement about how anything i said about the KKK is incorrect. So i'll let that one go.

Instead of an open ended statement about how some work really hard and can't make it give me specifics. Who? what? where? how? because everyone that i know that put everything they had into has never failed but there are plenty more that half ass it and fail. Kind of like going to college and getting torn up the night before an exam and then being mad you didn't pass.

I'm willing to consent on an office where they can sit down with someone and go through what they want and the person be brutally honest with them about what it's going to take to do it but they need to get there on there own. If you don't sacrifice and persivere to get it then it doesn't mean much to you when you lose it. Now if you put everything you have into it then it means everything to you and you have no idea what you will do with out it.