Thread: Democracy

Originally Posted by cap

It also seems to me that the admins are the only ones who truely wield power

.........and ........how can it be any other way?

should every user be given administrator rights on the website? How about the FTP passwords? Would you like those?

How about ban powers and map change powers? Should we just give those to everyone?

Your entire post is based on the ridiculous premise that a game server can be run by the people. We automate as many functions as we possibly can. Our admins are PROHIBITED from interfering in the map cycle, they are PROHIBITIED from arbitrarily restricting weapons, they are PROHIBITED from even banning people just becasue they feel like it, or have a personal issue with that player. Our admins are PROHIBITED from speaking as the wish, they are PROHIBITED from even playing as they wish, especially in CS. They are FORCED to set examples, carry burdens, and manage problems rather than play the game.

All of these things were established to give gamers control over their game, and get the admin out of their face. It's not as easy in the BF games, since we can't make automated vote scripts and simple admin GUI's.......but the votes are still there. both in game as user initiated map changes WHICH THE ADMINS DO NOT INTERFERE WITH, or in the website, where the popular opinion is ALWAYS adopted by the TTP admins.

I don't get your problem.....or if you even have a problem......but you done pissed off a lot of people with your post, cap.

Aren't you a teamwork affiliate? Weren't you caught up in their shit?

guess not...since teamwork was long gone before december.......

I like TTP because unlike America, theres no admins running around in the background taking bribes and shanking innocent citezens. TTP is not here to keep you down.

but truthfully, You should Model your governments after TTP and not the reverse.

Originally Posted by smokenspliff

I like TTP because unlike America, theres no admins running around in the background taking bribes and shanking innocent citezens. TTP is not here to keep you down.

damn straight. We'd rather higher a persecuted player, than keep the persecuting admin. We don't tolerate even minor slip ups. Ever.

maybe we should make another vote to fire me. But we already did me.

let's make a vote to fire grey mata.

Since we busted out some quotes. I like to quote Odawgg one of our founding members:

this is not a democracy, it's a cheerocracy.

All joking a side.

Originally Posted by capnemo314

Now, it just so happened that I have some spare time today. Thus I can finally get around to addressing a small issue that has been bugging me.

TTP is not a democracy.

That being said, I have only been a member of the community for a couple of months. If there is a yearly election or something similar, then I haven't witnessed it. If that is the case then I beg your pardon beforehand.

On to my main argument:
In a direct democracy, everybody votes on whatever laws are being considered. In America, which is a representitive democracy, everybody votes on who will represent them. Those elected representitives decide what the laws are.

In an oligarchy, power rests in the hands of a group. The members of that group don't have to be elected. If whomever is being ruled isn't satisfied with the rulers, then they have no legal means to remove them from power.

To seriously address Capnemo314 concerns. Traditionally since the TexasTeamPlayers community was conceived by few various individuals. The control of server has been distributed over elite group of teamplayers. There is no one person who controls the server and even among this elite group of people the levels of power and responsibility is distributed by various level to various groups.

Originally Posted by capnemo314

Before I continue with my argument, I should tell you that I'm considering people who have signed up on the boards 'members' of the TTP community, a.k.a. citizens.

Now, during my time here, I have seen nothing that implies that the members of TTP decide who the admins are. I get the impression that the admins decide who to admit as an admin. I have witnessed no elections for admins open to all of TTP's members.

Also regular players aka "citizens" are elected to be admins all the time. Shit I joined the community about a month after it started. Within a few months of playing and posting. An admin contacted me wondering I would be interested in Admin position and needless to say I have been enjoying contributing to TTP Community. So just an fyi Admins are TTP Members at one point. So TTP Members do get "nominated" to become new TTP Admins.

Originally Posted by capnemo314

It also seems to me that the admins are the only ones who truely wield power at TTP. True, a regular member may suggest something, perhaps even get a poll going. However, even if it is clear that the community wants something, the final say is in the hands of the admins. One example that comes to mind is the BF2: SF server.

So, I am led to conclue that TTP is in reality an oligarchy.

I have quick question. What part of the United States do you live in? In any city I have lived in there is someone other then myself who makes decisions for my city, state and country. They are called city council people, state & federal congress people, judges, and the finally the President. Next time you have grip about the current president most recent policy change. Bypass the process and make sure you drop him an IM, Xfire or Email him and tell him to knock it off.

Originally Posted by capnemo314

I am not complaining about the fact that TTP is an oligarchy. The folks that run the servers pay for them. It's their right to run them as they wish. I haven't seen any abuse of power by any admins and I've truely enjoyed my time here. The folks who run the servers seem perfectly justified in not running a BF2: SF server because then they would by paying for even more than they already are.

Um look to the left side of the toolbar. We have 16 man BF2 Special Forces Server which is planning to expanded to 32 man server since both TTP Regulars and Admins Lobbied for it. Put the bottle down for christ sake. Plus to refer to the modified Ranger10/Few Good Men quote. You have no idea how much the "community" aka Admins, Reservists and Random donors put into this server. If you own a house. Your mortgage bill is our monthly overhead and then some.

Originally Posted by capnemo314

Perhaps I'm going way too far in complaining about this, but I am a citizen of the United States of America, and I believe that many other members of TTP are Americans, and it disturbs me to see something that is not a democracy calling itself that.

In the end, I'm asking that we all refrain from calling TTP a democracy. From what I have witnessed, it simply isn't true.

Since I am 99% certain that this is going to be attacked, I'll be online sometime later today for rebuttal.

Thank you for reading through my post, and I hope that you will consider my argument and request.

Where the fuck have we posted the word Democracy on the TTP Banner, Homepage or main forums.

Let's look at your residency here from Apartment Manager/Tenant relationship as the best analogy.

You have been leasing an apartment since Dec 02, 2006. So you have been here at the TexasTeamPlayers Apartments for 2 months and 12 days and today on Feb 14, 2007 you walk without any warning to file compilant to the Management about how the Management maintains and runs the property even though there is nothing wrong with your apartment unit, the ability to use the facilities, and get access to the property.

Now that we have summarized your compilant. As a representive of the TexasTeamPlayers Management. How do you expect myself or other managers to respond after being bitched out about nothing. Hmmm...

If for example was the ONLY PERSON who made the decision on you staying at my apartments. You ass would be evicted at 3:29 pm CST. Notice this post is at 3:30pm CST.

But wait. There is some form of Democracy at TexasTeamPlayers. We never had to post a sign at the front of the gate when you drive through the guest entrance since the Tenants and Admins here at TexasTeamPlayers Apartments have always greeted everyone with handshake and smile when they register to become permanent tenant and giving the foot in the ass and the finger to the evicted nonteamplaying, cal frontin', hacking, teamkilling and uninformed wannabes.

Which side of the property would you prefer to be on?

At this point, we really are discussing somantics.

No form of government applies to this server but the one that fits the closest is a democracy because of the member's ability to affect their playing environment through rcon votes and the admins method of decision making being that of majority votes.

Thats it. I am going to nominate Capnemo for a position as BF2 Low Admin and the community of Admins/Citizens "vote" him into "office" and see if contribute to this society of oligarchists as he has so gracefully put it, but unlike an oligarchy more like democracy numerous people will have elect him to becoming an admin and for some reason if he can't perform in office if his nomination is successful then similiar to a democracy were going to impeach his ass.

By stating that we're a democracy, you implied that I agreed that Toobag should be unbanned. If the ban had been sustained, then you would have been implying that I agreed that his ban should have been sustained.

and if you were part of the state that is involved in voting on such matters, then it WOULD be an democracy. You just aren't a .....registered voter.....I guess.

Maybe you'd be happier in that it's a democracy to some, and not to others?

Your point on the banned forum is ridiculous. What should we do.....allow a clan to come in, register enough members, and then know they can run amuck, simply because they have enough votes to keep themselves ubanned? Maybe even vote themselves into office? Maybe even vote off games they dno't like?

LEST WE ALSO NOT FORGET, people can register for many, many accounts, all at once. One person can be hundreds of votes if they were so motivated. And for you to assume that we can leave all community decisions to the purest form of democracy is for us to assume that pure democracy can exist in a forum where registrations come and go, completely anonymous, and unregulated. And it can never be like that.

You seem pretty smart. And I bet you're going to try and counter some of my points. And that's fine. but given what I've already said.....you sticking to your point is simply you wnating to look defiant.....to somehow give yourself some sort of moral or intellectual edge.

You're not going to back down.....you're probably not even going to admit where we are right and you are wrong. And you certainly aren't going to go looking for votes you didn't bother to take part in.

So....then guess what we have to do? Like the nepotistic dictating oligarchs you so claim us to be.....we're going to have to silence you, simply because you aren't listening, and we don't have time to talk to someone who is deaf. And in your mind, that's going to justify everything you think about us........

but we know that in the general TTP population, it's more important for us to set the example with you, rather than allow you to speak. So, for the greater good, your rights and priveledges are violated, with no way by you at all. And.....a majority of TTP votes "do you like the admins": Yes.

I say we vote him in, just so he can see that we voted....and then vote him out....to make sure he saw that we vote.