team switching

**Omicron** · 12-17-10, 10:55 AM

First off, I want to state that I don't consider this to be admin "abuse", I'm simply bringing this issue up as a question/concern and this seems to be the most appropriate place to post it.

My issue is that lately, I have been experiencing an excessive amount of team switching by the admins. I particularly notice it when iravedico is on, however, I can't definitively say that he is the one swapping me. On 3-4 occasions, I have been switched during warmup round. How can an admin decide whether the teams are fair based off of a warmup round? I'm just not sure that admins should be hand selecting teams without seeing how the map plays out first. On one particular occasion, I was switched on the warmup round, then switched back to my original team after 5 rounds when my team was up 5-0, then swapped again when the team i was on won the next 6-7 rounds in a row, then swapped a final time to play the rest of the map with the team i had joined off the start. It got to the point that i was getting annoyed and it's hard to work with your teammates when they are changing every couple rounds. As a side note, I am aware that the server has an auto-balance function but I know that the admin was switching me based on the switch notification message.

My question through all this is; at what point does the amount of team switching become excessive? and why are admins switching people in the warmup round?

When i say "admins", I'm using it as a general term since I don't know who is switching me all the time. This isn't an issue that I run into with that vast majority of admins, it just seems to be a select few.

I completely agree that admins should be able to switch players from teams in order to make the games as fair as possible, but it's just not realistic to think that every game will end in an epic 14-14 showdown.

**MaFioSo** · 12-17-10, 11:13 AM

In the scenario your describing I think the switching was somewhat excessive but overall I don't think theres enough switching. For some reason or another its common to see teams stacked on the server. It seems like more often times then not I'm either on a team that is dominating or being dominated. When teams get stacked people start getting frustrated and rage quit, which kills the server. However, I have noticed that sometimes when the switching occurs, it doesn't necessarily even out teams, its just stacks the opposite team which defeats the purpose. As far as why admins are switching players at warm up, I think its safe to assume that the Admins on the server have been playing on the server for a long time and already know which players are more skilled. So maybe the Admin saw that there were a lot of skilled players stacked on one team, so he/she decided to make changes immediately because he/she knew the teams would be uneven. Why would they wait until it was 6-0 before making any changes if they already know the team is stacked.

**SmokenSherriff_** · 12-17-10, 10:08 PM

Why would they wait until it was 6-0 before making any changes if they already know the team is stacked.

I was the admin that made the team swap involving you that nite.

I move people when i feel its necessary and have been around the block long enough to manage the teams correctly. There is no perfect science. Many dont move fast enough or enough. Others may go the other way sometimes. I try to be pro active rather then regretful. Regardless its feeling, experience, and opinion.

Its been a while now so i cannot remember the maps exactly. I believe it was lost temple and Train prior to us going to piranesi. You were tops on your team in train with scores like 40 -16 and lost temple somthing similar. There were ass kickings on both of the maps. We go to piranesi and since you want specifics ill give it to you. The teams from the start were Omicron, Ira, Sawmeoff, Scotzo, FireDragoon, Jizz, and like 4 other regs. Ct's were yung and i with several other names i didnt recocgnize not one. T's had like 9 players and ct's had 7.

So without getting into why you as a reg and resident clan member joined the easy side of three maps in a row while spanking the other team.... lets get into the answer to your question.

Do you want a good game? If the answer to this question is yes then my experience that somthing needed to be done immediately. By the time someone else joins, or people start noticing t's are up 5 - 0 and then start trying to help out ct that its rediculously late if not too late. Been playing and admining here for 5 years at least and seen t side piranesi role ct's a million times. I as admin used my judgement in trying to improve the competition on each team thus improving the overall communtiy experience.

I agree that often a few rounds are necessary to determine the climate of the team balance. So i rarely make moves that fast. However it was my judgement that some balance was needed. You having played so well was chosen by me to help balance things out. Thought the one move could keep from having to make several. The natural tendency of the map is "IF" ct's take a early lead people join and flock to rally t's to a victory. In this situation I felt it was best for everyone that shares the view with me of keeping it competitive and fair. A move can not be judged on what happens after its made. People disconnect, other players join etc. The unknowns that follow do not play a role in determining the situation. I chose to move based on the known.

This obviously irritated you by the message you typed to admin. Demanding I explain the move to you. Why it bothered you or why you didnt also realize the team unbalance and circumstances surrounding the move surprises me. You knew exactly why or you should of. Also why you post here about the situation shows me that having a fun, competitive, balanced game isnt important to you. If it was you would appreciated the move and accepted the challenge... moving on down the road only wishing more admin would be more proactive.

Smoke

**Omicron** · 12-18-10, 01:15 AM

Smoken, you are obviously under the impression that my post was meant as a personal attack on your abilities as an admin. Let me clarify by explicitly stating that my post was only meant to address my concerns of excessive switching and not as a means to call anyone out.

As far as the night when i was switched 4 times in one map; this happened over a week ago and I am not able to recall exactly how the teams were set up. If you are able to remember the exact player/team setup from a warmup round that occurred over a week ago, you are a talented individual (not being sarcastic). However, I am usually one of the first people to choose a side on a map since my computer loads decently fast so I'm not sure why you're accusing me of team stacking. Furthermore, while this isn't a subject I would like to get involved with on this particular thread, I strongly disagree with the notion of "easy-sided-map" with respect to a TPG server. We have too many talented leaders and strat callers to assume that the makeup of a map will be a deciding factor in the outcome of a game.

Also, I am surprised that you were so concerned over the idea that I, as a reg, was team stacking when you also mentioned that there was at least one other admin (ira) on my team. 70% of the time, I will chose T side on pira because I enjoy playing T side on that map and contrary to the assumption you made above, I do in fact play CS to have fun.
*Ira, this statement wasn't meant to call you out. I know that you usually play T side because you like to make calls. I just added this to convey a point.*

I would also like to address you statement indicating that I was "Demanding" an explanation for the team switch in warmup round. I hardly think that typing "explain?" in admin chat merits the tone of "Demanding". You also forgot to mention that there were no follow up messages after that since I immediately recognized that me asking that question in game is not allowed thus my being here now and asking it in the forums.

I understand that you thought the teams may have seemed stacked and I do appreciate you trying to be proactive by evening them before the score got out of hand but my point is that the score was 0-0. Once the score hits 4-0 or 5-0, start making changes. But until then, let the map play out and see what happens. Don't forget that it was my team that lost on the map that I was switched 4 times. If I was truly on the "stacked easy-side" of a map, why did we still lose?

I don't mind being team switched to help even out the score on a map. Go ahead and check the admin chat logs, i frequently ask to be moved to the other team if it's not possible for me to do it myself. I just didn't understand why I was being switched in warmup round (which you clarified for me) and I don't like being unnecessarily moved multiple times on a single map.

**SmokenSherriff_** · 12-18-10, 01:21 PM

Not sure about the being moved several times. Next easy sided maps do matter. Not so much to the dramatics that people make them out to be. But two even teams on Piranesi and the t's will win 70% of time. Regardless thats neither here nor there. Ira was on my team t side train and t side lost temple so for him to join t on pira means nothing. We all can only get drilled so long before we just want to not have to make calls and just focus on our play for a map.

Omicron you been great reg for long time.... so I dont want you to think this situation changes my view of you. It doesnt. Nor do i want anyone else to judge me on single events.

I will say it has been discussed to me about you playing on easy side of map. Know that people do this all the time. But when a skilled player which you are does it; it sticks out. Now you can play whatever side you want... however personally lets just use that night. Dropping a 40 + bomb on train and same if not more on temple then playing t side pira may have been a error in judgement simply on the evaluation on "respectable or honorable" not right or wrong. The move did not take place because of this but i did notice. I joining ct on pira after taking the drillings we did on previous two maps would appreciate the help of a skilled player like yourself. This is not an admin issue just a personal one. The admin issue was just for balance.

I remember that night because Ira and I discussed it to some length after it happened.

If you are not questioning my admin capability or judgement then im sorry for slight irritation in tone.

As far as the other nights you are reffering to im not aware of particularly.

I disagree about the comment of letting it play out in that scenario... Dust 2 or many other maps ya... but pira ? Na we were behind in numbers and very behind in regs and to allow it to hit 5 - 0 would be poor admining and unfair to the community. Everyone involved, both sides deserve a good and fair game.

I understand you not knowing of a better place to post and could not address the individual admin man to man because you weren't sure who it was. However any post here I take very serioulsly and also played into my tone.

Again we admin are just trying to keep this a fun place to play which includes keeping teamplay, team balance, and map management at a point of excellence above any other server. As you have in the past please keep this in mind when questioning why somthing is done... it isnt always perfect or what you may like but it is done with the right spirit trying to keep the excellence that makes this place great. I know you do and will continue too.

Thanks,

Smoke

**Mobi** · 12-19-10, 10:15 AM

I would like to point out something that I saw that was an issue there was teamswitch in the middle of a dust 2 round where one CT got switched to T during the round and one ct was killed after that ct was switched to t. I do not know who was admin at that time but I've heard comment saying that it does happen from time to time.....

I think Admins need to work on the timing of the teamswitch there should be no reason why admins should switch players who are alive to another team during the round....

**space.cowboy** · 12-19-10, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Mobiusxg5

I would like to point out something that I saw that was an issue there was teamswitch in the middle of a dust 2 round where one CT got switched to T during the round and one ct was killed after that ct was switched to t. I do not know who was admin at that time but I've heard comment saying that it does happen from time to time.....

I think Admins need to work on the timing of the teamswitch there should be no reason why admins should switch players who are alive to another team during the round....

That is simply a mistake that happens from time to time. There are two options when the time comes to move players, move now, or move at the end of the round. Occasionally fingers slip when you are selecting which option.

**Guyver** · 12-19-10, 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by space.cowboy

That is simply a mistake that happens from time to time. There are two options when the time comes to move players, move now, or move at the end of the round. Occasionally fingers slip when you are selecting which option.

Agreed.

**Madmax (Grape)** · 12-19-10, 09:53 PM

Originally Posted by space.cowboy

That is simply a mistake that happens from time to time. There are two options when the time comes to move players, move now, or move at the end of the round. Occasionally fingers slip when you are selecting which option.

Usually this isn't the case. If you "swap after round" it will swap the players after a team is declared victorious. In CS, there are a few seconds of dead time after the round is officially over (designed to give people time to pick up guns and such). Now, if a player who got swapped "after the round" happens to notice this, they can kill their former teammates. This happens all the time and is not admin error at all.

**Mobi** · 12-21-10, 10:30 AM

but in some situations where most of the CT's Or T's are alive admins have no other choice but to switch players at the end of the round... But also is the server design... because it depends if the server has activated teamswitching at the end of the round... Its a minor flaw in the design but most times admins are aware of who is alive and who is not... I think admins.... But theres one thing all players have to watch for is the team switching status that way players can be prepared for the team switch and hide.. when the game is over....