Thread: Snipers: Not Just Each Other's Problem Anymore

Agreed. Even if you are faced with a sniper who is much better than you, or at least one who wins sniper duels much more consistently, doesn't mean you can't contribute. If your team is doing their job properly, they can make the other sniper's life very difficult, and if you just stay out of his line of sight or attack from weird angles, you can put a hurting on the other team without their sniper ever seeing you.

Very long post warning! If you want a tl;dr, there are bullet points at the end for the bottom half of the discussion.

Bump and an update.

I remembered writing this after I had a particularly frustrating round as sniper the other day, so I thought I'd bring it back for a small moment of shiny sunlight before it disappears again, as most of what was bothering me is adequately covered in this thread. I also have a few more thoughts on sniper strategy and counter-sniper strategy that I think are worth sharing.

On protecting snipers, and the strategic value of doing so:

Aside from area control and spam, the best way to protect a sniper, especially in a mobile situation (attacking, or 5-pt CP, for example) is The Blob. The Blob, as everyone knows, cannot be stopped.

What this comes from is the fact that each class has a preferred range of operation, where they can contribute most greatly to the team while still being safe in their respective roles. Heavies, for example, like to fight from short range, and can take a lot of damage, so they tend to form the front of the team's battle line. Soldiers generally work from directly behind the heavies, at medium-short range, medics stay at medium range behind the soldiers, and demos usually at medium or medium-long range to stay near the medics (This, obviously, is a discussion for pub play). A sniper's most effective distance is not, in fact, across the map, standing on a balcony waiting for enemies to come across their sight, but from right up in the middle of The Blob, next to the medic. Good snipers will have a much easier time making frequent and effective shots from medium range than from long range.

What this means is that the team, like a big ball of candy, is crunchy on the outside, but chewy on the inside, where the support classes hang out (including, yes, scouts and spies, when they need a place to fall back to). At least, it is in an ideal situation.

What this gives the team is inevitability. Maybe the sniper won't make the first shot, but the important thing, and the thing teams so rarely realize, is that, if you're playing right, he doesn't have to. You have long range striking power contained in an impenetrable wall of overhealed soldiers - victory will be yours, if only you don't break up into a puddle of uncoordinated goo rushing the point without rhyme or reason. Snipers make a team slower, but surer, because their method of contributing to a battle is to infrequently create enormous advantages, rather than frequently create small ones (as per, say, a soldier). Protect the sniper, give him clear shots, and that advantage will come quickly and be overwhelming when it arrives. A sniper, like an engineer, is more effective the longer they remain on the field uncontested (Note that I do NOT mean immobile or irrelevant, I mean unchallenged, which includes the ability to move, protected, to a better location). More time means more chances at chaining together a group of kills, which means more likelihood for the sniper to instantly win the game for your team.

On how to snipe when the other team's snipers outclass you:

One thing I have a lot of experience with, playing here, is facing off against snipers who are much, much better than me. The snipers at TTP are often of very high quality, and inevitably know the best positions in which to entrench themselves for maximum visibility and minimum danger. (Many of them so much so that they neglect to move around enough, but that's a thread for a different time). Often, for me or other snipers, it can be a difficult or impossible task to beat them at their own game and jump in for the sniper duel. So don't. There is no reason to play like your opponent wants you to. Instead, try some other ideas - these are hard to quantify without examples, so I'll tell a story.

The other day, on Gravel Pit, I was sniping on defense, and causing havok. My team was supporting me admirably, there were sentries covering my back, and a soldier-medic combo keeping near me, and keeping me overhealed (KEY for snipers) - an ideal situation. Alex_Truth, on the other team, switched to countersnipe against me. We are very evenly matched, and he often has an edge in sniper duels - bad news for me, as protracted duels with a sniper that I would frequently lose would make me next to useless. We dueled a couple of times, which ended in trading overhealed snapshots, and thus being inconclusive. I kept him pinned in the tunnel for a bit with a charge, and then he kept me pinned behind the house for a bit when he saw me hit a different target. This is when I changed places.

Alex thought I was still pinned behind the house, and so even though he had the advantage in every possible way, there was still nothing he could do as I managed to walk the other direction and pick off a heavy-medic combo. My team-mates, with whom I had excellent communication at the time, moved with me. When Alex changed direction to go for my new position, his team did not, and so I was able to win the sniper duel due to superior support.

None of this in any way reflects badly on Alex - he is an excellent player, a talented sniper, and he played perfectly in the situation, assuming his goal was to countersnipe me. However, because I had the support of my team-mates, and a more flexible strategic objective, I was able to come out on top in the interaction.

What this means:

Be flexible - don't always get stuck into duels or specific targets. Especially against better snipers, but often even against worse ones, you can be infinitely more useful picking off combat classes than getting stuck in fruitless duels with other snipers. Make them look for you, and you are free to be elsewhere, ignoring them entirely.

Ensure support - talk to your team-mates. Anyone who was on that round knows that the entire time I was engaging with Alex, I didn't shut up for a second. Because of this, our medic and soldier were able to provide me the support I needed to provide them the support that they in turn needed.

Choose your ground - if you have to snipe against another sniper, make sure to do it from a position of strength. Because I moved, and my team moved with me, to a different sight-line, Alex was forced to engage me on ground of my choosing, when I had the shot set up, and my team-mates protecting. Because I had told my team where to look, he was under pressure from a demoman already, and his team's attempts to pressure me were foiled by the soldier-medic I had nearby. It may look like just a sniper duel, but it was my team that did all the work - my skill and Alex's skill were literally completely irrelevant.

That's all for now - this is getting too long to post all at once. Hopefully, for the snipers out there, this has been something to think about - and even more hopefully, for the people who aren't snipers, this has given you a little more insight into how to play with and against them.

Feel free to try.

I agree and give Cheese Awesome points.

<Rant>

One of the most frustrating things for me is not enough information. I work methodically, taking out primary targets as I see them, and then sniping the rest. 50% of the time, when I play sniper, I hear, "LOOK OUT! SNIPER!"

I immediately look at all the best sniping spots on the map and fail to see him, and I ask, "Where is he?"

Eventually, I find him and kill him.

In the meanwhile, him and one other person jump on the sniper bandwagon, proceed to be in the positions I like, and end up getting 2_fort snipers (who can only shoot 4 positions, or sit there looking at one) to train their beads on them.

Suddenly, I die to a spy or a random crit rocket that was supposed to be for the demoman twenty feet to the left of me, and I hit tab, see that we now have 4 snipers and I switch, despite being near the top of our team and making all my picks.

I change classes (usually to Spy, because we have none, or to Solly/Pyro/Demo), and call out for fewer snipers. In the case where I switch to spy, suddenly, all three of the other snipers switch to spy, meanwhile, an okay sniper takes over and I'm playing a heavier class I'm not necessarily awesome with, but I'm decent enough to hold my own.

</Rant>

And I like overheals. Because snipers on TTP like full-power bodyshots or a quick headshot. They never wait for anything else unless it's easy.

Snipers don't have to get kills either - You can be a deterrent to any heavy or medic who's peeking around. Medics die to you and heavies, if you get off a headshot, but not one to kill them, will probably retreat, because getting a second one is easy, and their minigun can't fire in two places.

Originally Posted by CheeseLikeSubstance

Be flexible - don't always get stuck into duels or specific targets. Especially against better snipers, but often even against worse ones, you can be infinitely more useful picking off combat classes than getting stuck in fruitless duels with other snipers. Make them look for you, and you are free to be elsewhere, ignoring them entirely.

True for all classes. Avoidance of duels - especially lacking in me, especially valuable in 6v6, where 1 person is 1/6th of your team and your enemy is likely at least as skilled as you :8. Good post Cheese :9.