Is Heavy too good now?

**sickwookie** · 07-21-10, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by Mr.Expendable

Spys are usless when you got 3 heavies on the cart, they just shoot indefinatly in all directions and you litterally cant get close to that cart as a spy.
With one sniper on the heavies team to atleast keep the enemy sniper distracted that plan goes down the drain.
And a krits demo is easily counterd by a uber, that can save one maybe two heavies depending on how good the medic is, and takes out the demo before he can do much damage. A uber pyro does it even faster and gets him too far away to hurt the team.

If the heavy is OP in that situation why is there a good medic a sniper, and a pyro in the scenario? You might as well say heavy is OP because with 3 kritz demos beside him he is invincible.

**Keiron** · 07-21-10, 12:43 PM

All this talk about different situations is amusing and quite enlightening. To me all this says is that the Heavy is not OP.

Why? OP would be if he dominates in ALL situations, all the time, which he doesn't. Heavies are stronger in numbers, with a good team/medic for backup, and on PL maps. Heavies are weak against Soldiers, Demos, even Pyros given the situation, Snipers and Spies, if these classes are played correctly.

To have a class that is truly OP, he'd dominate all the time, 100% of the time. The fact that he doesn't and can't, proves to me that he is balanced just fine the way he is.

Stop complaining about the balance of the Heavy since, as someone said earlier, the Heavy is no longer a pushover class or easy kill all the time. Heavies suffered for awhile there and now that they are balanced, leave them be and just adapt to the changes. We've all adapted to all the other class changes/unlocks, it is time to stop bitching about the Heavy and adapt.

**sleeepy** · 07-21-10, 03:14 PM

Alright I'm willing to concede and say that the rev and move speed buffs did not make him overpowered, even though I thought he was fine before and took some more thinking to use.

Natasha on the other hand is out of control. My problem with it is that all you need is 1 little bullet for 3 damage from across the map to slow the target(s) to a crawl and giving basically free kills to your other classes. Yeah I know about getting to cover and peeking Heavies around corners taking little damage, but there are times where you have to be in the open or you might as well just concede the round. First area of badwater: little cover for offense, Heavies on the cliff, sloth movement speed, easy rockets and sniper shots for the enemy. Same thing for mid point of freight or the first stage of pipeline or granary yard or anywhere on viaduct, etc.

Again I don't have a problem with the slow as a concept. Natasha was made for bad players who can't aim worth a damn and basically gave them a crutch to do so: that's fine since they're doing less damage. However, with the fact that you can slow half a team from beyond the ranges of most classes' capabilities to fight back effectively and then have your team pick off what are essentially immobile targets, there's something wrong with that.

As for counters, there isn't a whole lot you can do. Soldiers and Demos can corner peek but I'm talking about situations where that isn't an option. In an open area at mid range the Heavy easily beats the Soldier and is pretty even with the Demo so you can't really call him a counter. Spies aren't a counter to Heavy, they're a counter to stupid players and are in turn countered by smart players. Scouts are actually pretty great vs Heavies provided you can aim, but since every Heavy these days is using Natasha your speed advantage is gone and its 300hp vs 125. Good luck.

So to conclude, the buffs are fine as long as the Heavy is using Sasha. With Natasha however, the extra speed combined with the ridiculous slowdown is too much at range. Make the slow proportional to damage dealt. If I get hit for 3 damage from across freight mid that doesn't mean every Soldier and Scout nearby should get an automatic free hit on me.

**Arreo** · 07-21-10, 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by sleeepy

However, with the fact that you can slow half a team from beyond the ranges of most classes' capabilities to fight back effectively and then have your team pick off what are essentially immobile targets, there's something wrong with that.

Yeah... I'm not sure what gun you are using, but miniguns are ridiculously inaccurate at long range. It's a trade off, I can spam 30 bullets against an enemy at long range and maybe I'll hit with one or two. But that means I've just wasted a ton of ammo, and that enemy isn't in any danger of being killed.

And any competent soldier will start spamming rockets back at the heavy, which will probably make the heavy stop shooting and dodge.

**Arreo** · 07-21-10, 03:29 PM

I agree that Natasha slowdown should have range drop-off like the Sandman does. But the idea that it is a good weapon at middle or long ranges is just ludicrious.... a bullet at long range (battlement to battlement on 2fort) does 3-6 damage.... you are in no danger of being killed by that unless you are severely stupid.

**sleeepy** · 07-21-10, 04:16 PM

Ok Arreo forgive me if I'm going to sound like an asshole, but you seem to have your facts wrong.

First, where did I mention 2fort and why are you bringing it up? In the locations I listed it's very possible that other classes with decent mid-range capabilities like Demo or Soldier are going to be able to land much easier shots and that Scouts have a real possibility to get in close, fast.

Miniguns are not as inaccurate as you think, especially when I'm talking about landing just 1 bullet, because that's all you need to slow the enemy. Also, you don't seem to know exactly how they work. you have 200 ammo listed, but each "ammo" fires 4 bullets for a total of 800 bullets. Using 30/800 to slow someone from a realistic distance and then let your teammates get an easy kill seems like a good trade, especially when you don't have to reload.

It's also impossible for a Soldier to win a mid-range fight against a Heavy if he's already spun up. A rocket will do 30-60 damage at that distance, depending on how well you hit, so even 4 direct rockets won't kill a Heavy. Any competent Soldier will rocket jump to cover in that situation.

Finally I know that a bullet does 3 damage at max fall off distance, that's not the point. The Heavy's damage isn't the problem, neither is the fact that he slows, it's the fact that this is a team game where you have 3 classes that can cover a lot of ground almost instantly and another one that specializes in long range. Gives those 4 classes a target that's practically standing still and they can easily close in and make quick work of them or just get an easier than usual shot on them from afar.

**Arreo** · 07-21-10, 04:30 PM

Don't worry about soundingn like an asshole, I'm not taking any of this personally, I just enjoy debating this (since it is my most played class)

2fort is the distance ruler that is used for weapon damages in the TF2 wiki, it just allows an easy way to picture distances rather then Hammer units. That's the only reason I brought it up.

Why are you so focused on 1v1 battles? A competent heavy is going to win 1v1 against almost any class in the game, but that's not the point of the game. The idea is that you have a team that focuses fire to take out threats. Teamwork is the ultimate Heavy counter and it will win almost all the time. Flank the heavy, outmaneuver him, catch him in the open, force him into a sticky trap. There are so many ways to take him out, but very few of them are 1v1 situations.

If I use my ammo to spam a enemy from long range and help my team get a kill while he is slowed that isn't being overpowered, that's called teamwork. That means that my team was there to capitalize on the opening I created. It's no different then a scout stunning someone and then another class cleaning up. Or sapping a sentry right before the teams push comes in. Or throwing a jar full of my own urine at an enemy. Some weapons are meant to create opportunities for your teammates, and Natasha is one of them. Natasha dosen't remove your ability to fight back (like sandman), it just slows your movement speed. And moving slowly isn't a death sentence in and of itself.

**Arreo** · 07-21-10, 04:44 PM

If I had to rank the ways I die as a heavy in order of most often to least often, discounting crits, it would be as follows:

#1. Focused explosive damage: More then one demo or soldier hitting me with explosives

#2. Flanked/attacked unaware: Some class gets the drop on me by coming from an unexpected angle and does enough damage before I can respond that I don't have a chance.

#3. 1v1 against someone getting heals: They have a medic and I don't usually means I lose or run away (barring some good luck)

#4. Hit by a random shot while running away: Ok, maybe this dosen't happen as often as it seems to, but damn, always when I'm just a few steps from a health kit I get nailed by a lucky roller....

#5. Heavy vs Heavy: 1v1 heavies usually comes down to luck and reflexes.

#6. Spies: even a lousy spy only has to get just a bit lucky and they can line up a backstab. It dosen't happen that often (especially since they are targeting the engys now) but it does happen.

#7. Snipers: Usually I can avoid snipers unless there is a really good one like Evil Monkey or Pimp. Then I just die over and over....

...

#999: Killed by a sword and board demo: Simply put it dosen't happen, and I laugh every time some idiot tries it...

**Sketch** · 07-21-10, 04:50 PM

Originally Posted by Arreo

#999: Killed by a sword and board demo: Simply put it dosen't happen, and I laugh every time some idiot tries it...

This is my favorite kill these days as a Heavy. The only thing that tops it is needling a Pyro with tunnel vision.

**Mr.Expendable** · 07-22-10, 01:13 AM

Originally Posted by Sketch

This is my favorite kill these days as a Heavy. The only thing that tops it is needling a Pyro with tunnel vision.

Only a dumb pyro runs at a medic head on that has his needles out. Strafe is the key. Heck medics are just about the only class you can still manage to strafe effectivly and survive with the nerf on the fire damage. Or if hes in a group just light, airblast into a wall, and axe his nazi ass!

Anyways, on topic here. If the classes that were made to counter him (spy and sniper) are, as you said yourself in your list arreo, the not what really kills a heavies these days. Isnt there somthing wrong? Also a heavy shouldnt move as fast as it does now im my opinion. I agree with the spinup time like it is, but it should not be able to walk as fast with it spun up, I find that to be stupid. What did that exactly fix? Heavy wasnt made to dodge all damage he was made to be able to take hits and act as a meatshield that helps take in spam and dish out damage in a wide area to support the team and protect the medic/engy/point. Now hes able to be aggro and be on the very front pushing the point rather then playing the defensive role that he was made to play.